It was a controversial case, the Lina Joy way. The world media carried Rayappan's story amid a religious row in Malaysia. The Cabinet chaired by PM Abdullah Ahmad Badawi discussed the case yesterday and passed it to the Attorney General to decide.
Today, it was decided. It was decided that A. Rayappan was not Muhammad Rayappan Abdullah when he died. He was a Christian again, not a Muslim. [Read the full story here]
SHAH ALAM, Dec 7 (Bernama) -- The Selangor Islamic Religious Council (Mais) has decided not to claim the body of A. Rayappan for burial according to Islamic rites.The decision will leave many questions that need to be answered. Does this mean a Muslim in Malaysia can leave Islam? If Rayappan was a Muslim in 1990, he should be considered a Muslim till the day he died. No? Why should Mais worry if people would think of it negatively?
Mais chairman Datuk Mohamed Adzib Mohd Isa said all the information gathered before showed that Rayappan was a Muslim, but the evidence pointing that he was not a Muslim was overwhelming.
"So, I hope the matter is solved and we don't think the people will view us negatively because we make the decision based on the existing facts and not emotion," he told a press conference here Thursday.
Mais has to answer all the questions. The A-G has to answer all the questions. I know of Muslims out there who said they have left Islam who want to do it publicly. Can they now, since Rayappan could.
Me, I had no doubt that Rayappan died a Catholic after reading the Sun's front page report here yesterday.
Minister in the Prime Minister's Department Tan Sri Bernard Dompok told theSun in a telephone interview: "The Cabinet is very sympathetic towards the family. The sentiment of the Cabinet was that he should be recognised as a Christian."
Why cant people choose to be what they want? People should embrace and practice a religion only if they believe in it and not because they are forced to. If Rayappan is not a Muslim, let it be. If Lina Joy is doesn't want to be a Muslim, let it be. Poor Moorthy, his family was not given the chance to bury him. He was buried by strangers who was no where when the family needed help. Life is so simple, do what you want and be prepared to pay for it. Who are we to tell anyone anything?
ReplyDeleteSince Rayappan has converted and died as a christian. That means converting out of Islam is possible (Nyonya Tahir)- but not when you are alive (Lina Joy)?
ReplyDeleteSo, does this mean its death for apostasy whichever way you like?
As a Muslim, I feel this is another big sandiwara by the religious authorities.
ReplyDeleteDulu kes Moorthy JAWI menang tapi apa jadi dgn hadiah yg dibayar oleh Kerajaan - sepatutnya bila JAWI tak lagi mengiktiraf perkahwinan Moorthy isteri beliau secara otomatik tak berhak menerima hadiah berkenaan kerana beliau bukan Islam dan bukan lagi pewaris tapi JAWI hanya senyap saja kerana JAWI lebih mementingkan "form" dari "substance".
So the best thing to do is to dismantle all these pseudo-religious authorities. They serve no purpose except to create friction, to diminish Islam in the eyes of others and to waste taxpayers' money.
Bro
ReplyDeleteA Catholic, a Muslim and then a Catholic again.
Rayappan is answerable ONLY to God, his Creator.
Let's not play God.
BTW. I am a Muslim.
Where is our Ulamaks? Our Ulamaks are only good in decreeing half past six fatwas like wishing Happy Deepavali is haram, when comes to real issue they go into hidding.
ReplyDeleteThis should be a non-issue. We should concentrate on the living.
ReplyDeleteWe should make life better for all regardless of creed.
Therein lies the rub, how far if at all do these religious bodies make life better for us?
zach
I confess I am not a very religious person but reading the Rayappan's case, it leaves a very bad taste in my mouth. Who is the winner here? None, everyone ends up losing. The family, country and religion.
ReplyDeleteThere is just too many busybodies around to mess it up.
Don't you know we have two sets of rules for different classes of people? One set for Malay Muslims and one for non-Malay Muslims. The latter can leave Islam the former cannot.
ReplyDeleteOne for rich Muslims and one for poor Muslims. The latter can commit khalwat and former cannot.
The rich Malays can sleep with their mistresses and drink liquor at hotel lobbies and the religious authorities will close their eyes.
The small man is seen not fasting during the fasting month and he is hauled up to court. He sits with a girl by the sea side and he is arrested for khalwat.
The young school girls is punished for not wearing the tudong but the Malay Woman Minister is allowed to discard it.
The small Malay women must dress decently but singers and actresses can dress anyway they like.
To be honest this convert-in-convert-out issue riles me up, with everbody using MAIS as a convenient punching bag.What makes you people think MAIS is so hard-up to bury this Rayappan's body or whoever it is that is not a Muslim?
ReplyDeleteThere were competing claims.The already stiff Rayappan won't be waking up to confirm.Be adults, don't do some bhangra session in the newspapers, parties should present their case properly and be rational about it. No Syariah Court judge is going to decide that he is a Muslim when he is not.They are stupid.Who needs Rayappan anyway?
Don't use Islam and the Religious Authorities as bogeymen.They are just doing their job.Someone has to decide and surely it can't be you and me, can't it?
If Nyonya Tahir can be solved, I can't see why Rayappan's or Mutu's or Samy's case can't.
Agree with Billy, This is a non-issue.
ReplyDeleteIf only the authorities had checked & double-checked & done their homework.
Gosh, all these uproar is so unnecessary.
If it is a fact the the late Rayappan had once been a Muslim, had once said the shahadah, and died as a Christian, as the hadhari government decrees, then it is clear Muslims in this country can leave their religion, Islam. Just make sure you get a lot (or a loud) support to help your course.
ReplyDeleteAs long as you don't denounce Islam HADHARI, you guys will be alright. Including the non-Muslims.
ReplyDeleteBlame it all to the religious authorities... like one of our bro here said, they are just good in creating frictions, diminishing Islam in the eyes of others and wasting the taxpayers money..
ReplyDeleteBuck up, religious authorities! Use your brains... And start working!
Muslims / CHristians /Hindus / dll. . why are we even discussing these issues? Its the goverment's fault for allowing these kind of things to creep into our lifes!
ReplyDeleteWe should be focussed on how to right the wrongs of our councils! Making sure that taxpayers money are not thrown away to their cronies! Instead, we are reading about so and so catching so and so for close proximity! Arguing about who gets the right to bury their loved ones (a bunch of stangers or the ones aho actually took care of him in his days leading up to his death...)
I have an aunt who converted. She is still a firm believer of Islam, eventhough Non of her husbands relatives are there to support her (even though she is nearing 80)! She offered her husbands relatives to buy out their part of her house, the one that they both built, and paid for but they refused (how can they have the heart to do that?? It sits on a golden real estate belt!)
My point is, it is up to the person to believe in his/her faith, not for others to impose!
In chasing for our rewards in the afterlife, we are creating a mess in the current! Is this what we want Malaysia to turn to?
I say , do away with all this clandestine Religous activities...get our councils to focus on giving better amenities to the public, rather then catching those in skirts/not wearing their headgear/tight jeans etc, etc.
Policies like these are not going to get us to a developed nation's status! Grow up! Holding hands and kissing are perfectly fine! Not deserving of a FINE!!
Rocky perhaps you'll get a kick of reading this news available from times online at http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2493245,00.html:
ReplyDeleteLitvinenko converted to Islam, father says
"Billionaires, former KGB spies and Chechen rebels joined members of Alexander Litvinenko’s family for his funeral yesterday at Highgate cemetery in London.
What was meant to be a private, non-denominational service was interrupted by a Muslim imam who pushed his way to the front of the mourners to conduct prayers over the coffin. Litvinenko’s father had claimed that his son had converted to Islam on his deathbed."
regards
zach
Rocky!
ReplyDeleteAs much as I loath writing on any blogsite now including yours, a never ending defeat I see it as no one really cares! For example your comment on Rayappan should have been allowed to be printed in the main news media such as The Star, yes the NST or the SUN. Blog ni cuma shok sendiri sahaja, Pak Lah pun tak tahu bout the feeling of many malaysians expressed in the blogsite! Anyway!
I beieve in this millenium and it is not to late yet, that Umno should stop using Islam as a border collie to round up Malays i.e Muslims as a controlled item and to be "guided properly" into their societal pen. We all know that the government, i.e Umno, yes Umno, is losing Malay supports because of its archaic,outmoded and antiquated philosophy. Umno must find new ways to want the Malays to support this outmoded party purportedly to be looking after the Malay interests. Umno expects Melayu to be subservient and using Islam as a big stick to put the Melayu in their place. Well Umno if you think you can overwhelmed the modern Malays influenced by MTV and the V channel and modern television programme and pirated CDs, internet with your Islam Hadhari and futile Islamic reverse psychology you Umno morons have got something else coming for you all!
Now answer this! How can Rayappan a Catholic convert to Islam and then back to Catholicism! I thought, like Rocky, the law says if you are a muslim you are one until you die!? You now what! Umno knows it was wrong but it is afraid the Indians will stop supporting the government thats why! At the end of the day we are not really stupid are we! Umno you keep on like this you will find out soon enough!
precedent has just been started....
ReplyDeletelot more of simillar claim will arise soon. what the kings as religion head have to say...
.
ReplyDeleteIt is a case of pure idiots at helm.
All these religious bodies are nothing but nuisance – smart alecks who in fact knows nothing except creating uneasiness for everyone else.
To be pious is one thing but to destroy sanctity of ones death that’s pure idiocy.
.
Only if someone can confirm what God feels...
ReplyDeleteHantu Gigi Jarang
Hiya Bro Rock.
ReplyDeleteI was stunned when I saw the NST front page on the subject. Its smacks of "Rubbing the other side's face in" kind of headline.
One of the newsdesk people said "such indignation is reading troo much into it" but my point is this: Why does it have to be "Rayappan can now rest in peace". Does it imply that a muslim burial will not give peace?
WHat if Rayapan id found to be a muslim and the headline reads the same? Does it imply then that a christian burial will not give one peace?
Why the f$2k should we not read too much into it? NST has always been absymal when it comes to Islam. I am still pissed at their response in the Nabi Muhamad SAW charicature, and now this utterly insensitive headline.
And to think that Hishamuddin and Syed Nazdri (let's take out Kali, eh?) are both Malay Muslims. Shitheads is what I say.
I am not disputing the cas. Rayapan may well have been a Christian or a muslim, let god sort that out. But the headline shiould not be so F@4king jubilant. What if he's a mulsim and a religious-centric papers goes a BOLD: ALLAHUAKBAR headline or something likewise?
Reading too much into it my A$$.
Sorry bro. Too pissed off for my own good :(
Dear Rocky, forgive me but i
ReplyDeletethink this line of yours itself
is controversial -
"If Rayappan was a Muslim in 1990, he should be considered a Muslim till the day he died."
i used to live in a kampung in Kedah and muslims there told me if a muslim fails to live a religious life or worse, prays to an idol, he is automatically considers a murtad and out of the religion except if he ucap again what is required of Islam.
In this case, i think the court has found it very clear that he had failed to live the life required of a muslim and and worse still willingly so, and so is considered "out of the religion".
Forgive me if I am wrong.
If the family said he's going to be buried as a Catholic, let it be.
ReplyDeleteWho's MAIS; to come and interfere in such a thing?
The Rukun Iman and Rukun Islam never said you have to be buried according to Islamic ritual to be a Muslim.
If a Hindu is buried according to an Islamic ritual, would that make him a muslim?; and if a muslim being burnt to ashes, would it make him less muslim?
No way, the most important thing is how he had lived his life, not how the way people decide how he's going to be buried.
Just stop this stupid legal tussle right now. The media is portraying that the Muslims are some religious lunatic.
Yes, I'm a muslim.
Apa dah jadi dengan Malaya?
ReplyDeleteMasa hudup orang tak peduli kita
Bila mati semua mengaku saudara
Nak kebumi mayat pun kena bicara.
*TypicalProgrammer*
ReplyDeleteI am not a Muslim but after reading the post here I see contradicting statement. Does a muslim remains a muslim till he dies according to the Quran/islamic teaching? Doesn't the Quran/islamic teaching preaches that any individual has the right to choose his/her religion?
I dont meant to start a fight merely trying to understand the religion more. I know for a fact that you can force someone to 'take up' a religion. Appreciate any feedback.
in discussing this issue, 'logic' should not be the base, if so the existance of the Almighty is debatable.
ReplyDeleteand stop giving comments without any facts of Quraan so as it will distort ones akidah without one realising it.. not worth brother.
let's pray to the Almighty simillar incident would not happen to us and anyone close to us.
for those non-muslims (especially posters hiding behind anonymous) stop playing ulamak commenting about Islam as you carry no creadibility to even think of commenting other people religion. this is not the issue for anyone to joke about regardless of muslims or non.
There is a Hindi Sog by the late Mukesh.
ReplyDeleteIt goes like this. "Chaliya Mera Naam, Chalia Mera Naam, Hindu, Muslim, Sikh Khisai, Saab Ko Karo Salaam."
Basically it means:
Chaliya is my name. Whether a person is a Muslim, Hindu or Sikh, give a salaam to everyone without any regard for creed or religion.
Please emulate the late Mukesh (a top Hindi playback). This song was in the 60s. It is still applicable in multi-racial Malaysia.
Mr Singh
well it beats getting the DEATH SENTENCE for apostasy.
ReplyDeletethis is all because the constitution makes it necessary to be Muslim to be Malay.
but hey, as we all know, the earliest Malays, eg Parameswara(?), were Hindus.
Consider this headline in the NST, "Rayappan can now rest in peace"! What does it tell you? It tells you that according to the NST, Rayappan can now rest in peace because his body will be buried according to the Christian. If he's buried as a Muslim, he's not going to rest in peace!
ReplyDeleteAnother story. According to panglima Nazri,"Cabinet has shown it cares". So, Lina Joy and others, go and kautim with the cabinet to get their cares. They can approve should they feel like to give their care.
Hantu Gigi Jarang
alamak mehoon, engkau ni betul betul mee hoon lah.
ReplyDeletetak kan semua nak kena spell out dalam Rukun Islam dengan rukun Iman? Letih le, 5 dengan 6 rukun pun payah nak ingat.
Ni bukan pasal yang dah mati, tapi tanggung jawab yang hidup. Fardhu Kifayah. Yang hidup nanti kena tanya, kenapa tak sempurnakan jenazah yang Islam dengan cara Islam? Siapa nak jawab? Nasib baik ada Jabatan ke Majlis ke, yang di tugaskan untuk ini. Kalau harap aku, engkau, entah entah jiran sebelah rumah Islam yang sebatang kara mati pun main humban dalam sungai aje kut.
Kalau ikut macam engkau cakap, might as well jalankan aje projek incenerator kat Broga tu. Siapa siapa mati, bakar je kat situ. Apa ada hal, ye tak. Yang penting amal dia masa dia hidup kan? Mati, bakar ajele.
Pernah dengar talkin orang baca lepas tanam jenazah? Tu bukan untuk orang yang mati tu, dia dah gol dah, make no difference. Itu untuk yang hidup, yang dikifayah kan untuk menyempurnakan jenazah tu.
MAIS baru nak investigate the status dah semua terkejut beruk. Dia ada history masuk islam, kena la verify the status.
Agaknya ramai lagi orang yang masih ingat dan fahamkan yang Fardhu Kifayah tu maknanya - "Biar Orang Lain Buat, Aku Tak Payah" kut?
Rocky, closer to home the eldest brother of the late Fredo G, was being cremated at the Cheras cemetry....the religious body switched off the incinerator and had the body given a muslim burial. His mother, then still alife gave in because she said his soul has left and the muslim group could have the have incinerated body. Correct me if I am wrong.
ReplyDeleteThis lovely country I call mine, and all the non-chinese friends whom I am more close to than my own kind, all these will deteriorate if we allow religion and religious bigots to come between us. I hope this will not happen. I do not want to lose non-Chines friends that I have cultivated over some 60 years.Zorro.
"So the best thing to do is to dismantle all these pseudo-religious authorities. They serve no purpose except to create friction, to diminish Islam in the eyes of others and to waste taxpayers' money." - Definitely the answer to all calamity we facing now...
ReplyDeletethose fellas at religious office are plain jokers with nothing much to do to eat up their lifetime, except finding ways and mens to kill 'Islam' instead of propogating it to Non-Muslims.
Then Islam Madani, now Hadhari, next Hadhari V2.0 since Malaise Boleh here in Malaysia... wonder when that kickdefella half past six will wake up that he is one of those tax-payer money wastagers!
LOL...
Why can't the authorities verify Rayappan status by checking at his IC? The IC has already stated clearly that he was a Christian and it would be a laughing stock in the eyes of the world for the religious authorities to snatch his body and buried as Muslim.Lukily our beloved PM came to intervene and the issue was solved.The deceased family must be traumatised by this and I hope the Government could come out with specific guidelines so that this type of incident would be repeated by those fanatical religious authorities.
ReplyDeleteAHM/Annonymous
ReplyDeleteFrom your postings it seems that you are doing your part as a responsible Muslim. May allah bless you.
I am not a scholar, therefor I shall not dwell on hear say..
I am a Catholic though, and as in Islam, we also do not condone 'exits' in our religion. The point is who are we to judge another? I have a brother in law who converted to Islam, just so he could you know what with a muslim girl. Can you imagine the brou ha ha in our all Catholic family? So much so, that an Aunt (WHo herself converted to Islam, could comment that she never thought it would happen to my in laws who was the model family!)
The point is, its his choice, to forego his own beliefs, just for the love of one girl. ANd I can tell you, of all the muslim converts that I know, it was for the love of another that prompted them to convert. What gives Muslims the absolute right to judge others? Is it because your religion is better then mine? I for one certainly would not want to go there, cause I respect all others enough to respect thier believes, and not interfere with their believes, expecially when it comes to this kind of scenario.
So lets not impose our beliefs on others. Now, look at it this way, my brother in law, believed in Catholicsm from the day he understood what was going on. Now it seems, because of a girl, he has seen the new light.
Like it or not, this is the reality!
...and UMNO Opposess the formation of INTER FAITH COUNCIL!
ReplyDeleteVery simple issue here: The Jabatan Pendaftaran Negara which gave him the latest MyKad screwed up BIG TIME. Had they asked for a Jabatan Agama decree that acknowledges his renouncement, none of this would have happened. Obviously, JPN did not, or overlooked that.
ReplyDeleteOK, I am a Muslim convert. Want to hear my story (and someone please direct the JPN DG to see my ranting!)?
I converted to Islam in 2001. Alhamdullilah, am still a practising Muslim, albeit not a very pious one...
I went to the JAIS (Jab. Agama Islam Selangor) to get my plastic acknowledgement card so that my new Muslim name could be inserted into my MyKad. I rushed for the deadline, and thankfully, JAIS was kind enough to issue it at the very last minute.
I went to JPN Muar and guess what? They refused to accept my JAIS card, and asked that I go to a lawyer's office and angkat sumpah instead! So, a lawyer's letter is more credible than the official card from JAIS?
So, JPN, please buck up and standardise your procedures. I am BLOODY PISSED with JPN, and they have to kiss my ass to ask me to resubmit my application to include my Muslim name in my MyKad. If I die by the roadside, my MyKad still carry my non-Muslim name. Guess what? Although I did put Islam as my religion on my MyKad application form, they did NOT put that on my MyKad. So, again, if I did by the roadside, NOBODY would give me a Muslim burial, unless they check my little birdie... Even then, many non-Muslims are circumcised nowadays...
Someone please tell JPN about my case, and make them embarrased!
myview_aia
Probably someone has inserted some RM50 into MAIS hand and case closed. Similar feeling when your house on fire, the Fire figther came and stopped it. Then they ask who called them. Then together with Police man next to him, they said it cost RM200. So, you give or not give? Who has authority? You or the so-call "enforcer"?
ReplyDeleteNow Muslim can denounce Islam very easily. Pak Lah showed the way, just go to Pesuruhjaya Sumpah and declare that you are no longer Islam....
ReplyDeleteHi,
ReplyDeleteWhether converts are buried Muslim or not depends on when they die.
In this case it is because of the f**k up at the recent UMNO rah-rah that Rayappan is declared not a Muslim.
It's called political expediency.
UMNO is concerned that BN will lose the non-Malay vote so they have to play nice - for now.
I suspected as much when the AG acted to prevent the body from being removed by MAIS. (this brings another problem of the AG being political)
Previously UMNO thought that PAS was a threat - due to the perception that the tide was turning religious. They played the Islam card to the maximum - with consequences. Now it's the other way around.
All this means is that the Constitution has broken down because of cowards in the courts.
UMNO - to be in power all they have to do is do the right thing - the rakyat would support you. Unfortunately for you - this time round the rakyat of all races know you're all hypocrites.
sovind
Hi Rocky,
ReplyDeleteI am picking everyone's brain on this one ... it really is a legal research question I am working on for a case we are handling. When a person converts to Islam, is it a requirement of the Quran that he changes his name?
Any thoughts/suggestions are welcome. I'm going to do a literature search after this (in a scholarly journals database).
Have a good weekend :-)
Now that the case has been retracted, it is dismaying that it did not get to have its day in court.
ReplyDeleteI think that MAIS backed down to prevent the High Court from making a ruling. Had the ruling been made agst MAIS, then this would have set a legal precedent which would not be favourable (assuming the High Court ruled for Rayappan's family) in the bigger scheme of things.
Hence, I believe that MAIS backed down from a strategic point of view to maintain its stranglehold on the interpretation of Islamic legal rules instead of allowing themselves to be subservient to the Constitution.
These issues should be administrative matters and not politico-legal. Why can't basic human rights be honoured in Malaysia ?
The basic question is simple. What do you do with those who wish to leave Islam?
ReplyDeleteWho has the authority to make that decision on behalf of Allah? As for other belief systems it is up to their GOD.
Bro Rocky
ReplyDeleteSudahlah! No big deal - Christian, Muslim, Buddhist and etc. What is most important is we must be sincere, honest and genuine to our friends.
It is no use if you are a Muslim, Christian, Buddhist and etc if you are not sincere and taking advantage of your friends.
Like Rocky, He had helped Kalimullah to overcome his business problems and when he is at the realm of NST he forced Rocky out of his job. So the moral of hte story is does it mater whether you are a Muslim, CHristian, Buddhist and etc if you are not a genuine person!!!
Unfortunately, religion and race are used in politics to control the people. So, they (so-called leaders) made a rule through their own interpretation that once you are in you cannot get out and they can always have you under their control to do their bidding.
ReplyDeleteI believe that religion is all about faith and your beliefs. It should be you and you alone who decide which faith and what beliefs you want. It should not be forced onto you. What's the point of forcing and setting rules about a particular religion when it can be intepreted any way by the powers-to-be of the day to suit their needs? They want you to be obedient and do their bidding and maybe to be a suicide bomber. Funny they always ask other stupid fellows to die for their religion instead of dying themselves. The 7 virgins that I am lead to believe waiting upstairs for the fanatics must be older than my great grandmother by now...still we have people dying to be rewarded with these virgins.
Religion is about God and you and it should remain as such only. No person or govt should dictate how and what you believe in or don't want to believe in. To do so would only mean one thing: they have an ulterior motive and that is they want to control and use you.
There are govts that practice freedom of religion and there are govts that only say they practice it - which one do you think Malaysia is in?
Hi TypicalProgrammer 2pm,
ReplyDelete“I am not a Muslim but after reading the post here I see contradicting statement. Does a muslim remains a muslim till he dies according to the Quran/islamic teaching?”
Not necessarily so. It is possible for a muslim to die a disbeliever. (But only God would know for certain in what state of belief someone dies).
“Doesn't the Quran/islamic teaching preaches that any individual has the right to choose his/her religion?”
Yes, you are correct. Under Islam there is no compulsion in religion. (But that doesn’t mean that God will accept it). However, it is compulsory for muslim parents to raise their children as good muslims. Of course if the parents have done their sincere best and the son/daughter (who has reached maturity) still leaves Islam then it is no sin upon the parents. Also, generally speaking, muslims have an obligation to advise, educate or warn (at least in a kind and gentle manner of course) a muslim brother/sister if they clearly see him/her heading up the wrong path.
"I dont meant to start a fight merely trying to understand the religion more. I know for a fact that you can force someone to 'take up' a religion. Appreciate any feedback."
Friend, thank you for asking. It is always a pleasure if I can contribute towards eradicating Islamophobia :) Hope my answers help.
No issue actually, just another case of an itchy "batang celah kanngkang".
ReplyDeleteMia, in my opinion religion is so sacred and personal that it is really between you and that/what you believe to be your god. Based on this Alee can be a christian and Joni a muslim. And Toni whatever he/she chooses.
ReplyDeleteBased on the above as well there should not be any requirement for name change if you convert.
But it has been the practice for converts to change name, e.g from John to Johan, Silvia to Salbiah, Joseph to Yusoff, Jacob to Yaakob, Eve to Eva, etc. This I believe is purely cultural and a step towards gaining admission into the brotherhood/sisterhood of Islam, or, more commonly, the family you are marrying into.
More pertinent however is the adoption of 'bin or binti Abdullah' which denotes that the person concerned is now the servant of Allah. Which means that there is nothing wrong in leaving your name as Wong Abdullah.
The above, I suppose, only applies to the Malaysian context, as elsewhere no one bothers - it is really between you and god.
I’ve seen many valid comments from muslims and non muslims alike while some have also taken the opportunity to insult religion and race. But never mind that. The thing is some of us have actually lost the plot, which perhaps is due to the lack of understanding of Islam.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous 3:58PM hit the nail on the head as far as MAIS is concerned.
“Pernah dengar talkin orang baca lepas tanam jenazah? Tu bukan untuk orang yang mati tu, dia dah gol dah, make no difference. Itu untuk yang hidup, yang dikifayah kan untuk menyempurnakan jenazah tu. MAIS baru nak investigate the status dah semua terkejut beruk. Dia ada history masuk islam, kena la verify the status. Agaknya ramai lagi orang yang masih ingat dan fahamkan yang Fardhu Kifayah tu maknanya - "Biar Orang Lain Buat, Aku Tak Payah" kut?”
Yes, FARDHU KIFAYAH. For the benefit of non muslims (errrr…. and I would say for some muslims in this blog too! Okay, okay… it’s not my intention to incite anyone’s anger…), fardhu kifayah means there is an obligation for representatives of the community to carry out an act on behalf of the local community. For example, if a muslim dies, it is MANDATORY for some muslims of the community to give him a muslim burial. If this is done then well and good – mission accomplished. But if NOBODY gives him a muslim burial then the WHOLE of that local community has sinned. But as the brother says, fardhu kifayah should not conveniently be taken to mean since there are others who will do it then why should I bother. Well, you know what happens when everyone thinks that way. Hence you will usually find muslim committees in residential areas who provide their voluntary services whenever there is a death in the neighbourhood. To muslims, syukur alhamdulillah that there are such kind souls doing the fardhu kifayah – so let’s not berate them.
MAIS was performing fardhu kifayah. Nobody (especially not the muslims!) should fault them for that. Had they not made any attempt, who knows if Allah curses the whole malaysian muslim community who knew about the matter and did nothing at all. MAIS had to at least verify whether he died a muslim or not. Yes, maybe they could have done it quicker and you can blast the authorities for being inefficient or rude or insensitive to the family but it would not be right to accuse them of meddling in the family’s affair or of pursuing an insincere agenda. Now that they believe that Mr Rayappan died a non muslim then as far as this matter is concerned the fardhu kifayah has been fulfilled insofar as it could only be to the extent of verification of his faith. So the muslims should be grateful that MAIS has done the job on behalf of the muslim community. You and I sure did NOTHING.
As to whether Mr Rayappan actually died a muslim or non muslim, that is now no longer relevant and is only thrown to conjecture. What’s pretty certain is that no muslim burial or cremation will turn him into a muslim or christian or hindu. That’s all too late. So you see, the reason muslims were concerned that Mr Rayappan received a muslim burial – if indeed he was shown to have died a muslim – was not because it would make much of a difference to his after-life but because the living muslims themselves want to avoid the sin of doing absolutely nothing.
But most of all, I sympathise with Mr Rayappan’s family: firstly, they lost a dear member of the family, secondly they had to bear the torture of waiting to claim the body and thirdly they could see their plight being exploited by idiots who wanting to further their own islamophobic or racial or political agenda.
Bru,
ReplyDeleteIs it possible for you to post the picture which people are talking about regarding our PM holding Dato' Michel Yeoh during Monsoon Cup dinner?
Please, because I don't know why people are so excited about it.
Thank you.
azmi: It is always a pleasure if I can contribute towards eradicating Islamophobia :)
ReplyDeleteOh please Azmi. If you want to eradicate Islamaphobia, you don't have to talk to non-Muslims. Instead, your time would be better spend if you go and lecture those idiots who go around snatching bodies, beheading school girls, blowing up monks, invading tourist bedrooms etc
Consider the similarities and differences with Moorthy's and Nyonya Tahir's case.
ReplyDeleteMoorthy was a practising Hindu when he died. He was interviewed on TV during Deepavali. He ate pork according to his family, friends and relatives. He practised Hindu customs when he died. His only problem was that there are those who say he converted secretly to Islam a while ago and had some documents to prove it.
If Moorthy was a practising Hindu when he died, then he should have been given a Hindu burial. Why go on technicalities of some old documents that said he converted to Islam? Couldn't Moorthy have left Islam subsequently? Is Moorthy's failure to get a statutory declaration and get his IC to conclusively say "Hindu" fatal and caused him to be buried a Muslim?
Nonya Tahir died a Buddhist and was allowed to be buried a Buddhist as she had statutory declarations and letters from the religious department to leave Islam.
Why is it necessary for those leaving Islam to get statutory declarations and letters of approval from the Islamic authorities before they are recognised as having done so and got their "approval"? And it would appear that if you don't have the necessary declarations or letters of approval, you will be doomed for a Muslim burial even if you didn't want one at yor exit.It appears that the Islamic faith is very complicated and bureaucratic.
Moorthy's family still considers him a Hindu. What is the cabinet's stand on Moorthy now? All the 'incentives' offered by the government to his widow to close the matter isn't going to make the late Moorthy a Muslim. Or pacify his relatives. Give him a decent Hindu burial.
And on comments that it is now possible for muslims to leave Islam, I think the answer is still a NO for MALAYs.
This is because some colonial lawmaker said if you are a Malay, you are eternally a Muslim and wrote this into the Constitution. It would be good if a LIVING Malay were to test this constitutional provision and restriction and cite Nyonya Tahir as a precedent as our de fuckto Law Minister says.
anon 3:32 PM: “Oh please Azmi. If you want to eradicate Islamaphobia, you don't have to talk to non-Muslims. Instead, your time would be better spend if you go and lecture those idiots who go around snatching bodies, beheading school girls, blowing up monks, invading tourist bedrooms etc”
ReplyDeleteSure, i'll tell tell them not to do it again. You mean just the muslim ones right? Sheeesh...
Apa ini kita dok tengkar sangat. Bila kita tak ikut ajaran di sifatkan murtad. Apa lagi bukan Islam yang kembali kepada ugamanya. Apa tu Fardu Kifayah? Hanya selepas mati dan dagingnya adalah daripada makanan haram. Saya fikir haram juga orang yang sentuh daging haram tu, jika diharamkan manusia yang hidup makan yang tak halal. Biak pi lah. KIta jaga diri kita supaya suci. Kalau kita tak makan tapi pegang benda haram kita sama juga. Orang sakit perlu doktor, serupa juga orang yang tak ikut ajaran perlu MAIS atau badan agama lain sebelum mati. Bukan selepas. Jangan cakap tak serupa bikin.
ReplyDeleteApa ini kita dok tengkar sangat. Bila kita tak ikut ajaran di sifatkan murtad. Apa lagi bukan Islam yang kembali kepada ugamanya. Apa tu Fardu Kifayah? Hanya selepas mati dan dagingnya adalah daripada makanan haram. Saya fikir haram juga orang yang sentuh daging haram tu, jika diharamkan manusia yang hidup makan yang tak halal. Biak pi lah. KIta jaga diri kita supaya suci. Kalau kita tak makan tapi pegang benda haram kita sama juga. Orang sakit perlu doktor, serupa juga orang yang tak ikut ajaran perlu MAIS atau badan agama lain sebelum mati. Bukan selepas. Jangan cakap tak serupa bikin.
ReplyDeleteApa ini kita dok tengkar sangat. Bila kita tak ikut ajaran di sifatkan murtad. Apa lagi bukan Islam yang kembali kepada ugamanya. Apa tu Fardu Kifayah? Hanya selepas mati dan dagingnya adalah daripada makanan haram. Saya fikir haram juga orang yang sentuh daging haram tu, jika diharamkan manusia yang hidup makan yang tak halal. Biak pi lah. KIta jaga diri kita supaya suci. Kalau kita tak makan tapi pegang benda haram kita sama juga. Orang sakit perlu doktor, serupa juga orang yang tak ikut ajaran perlu MAIS atau badan agama lain sebelum mati. Bukan selepas. Jangan cakap tak serupa bikin.
ReplyDeleteApa ini kita dok tengkar sangat. Bila kita tak ikut ajaran di sifatkan murtad. Apa lagi bukan Islam yang kembali kepada ugamanya. Apa tu Fardu Kifayah? Hanya selepas mati dan dagingnya adalah daripada makanan haram. Saya fikir haram juga orang yang sentuh daging haram tu, jika diharamkan manusia yang hidup makan yang tak halal. Biak pi lah. KIta jaga diri kita supaya suci. Kalau kita tak makan tapi pegang benda haram kita sama juga. Orang sakit perlu doktor, serupa juga orang yang tak ikut ajaran perlu MAIS atau badan agama lain sebelum mati. Bukan selepas. Jangan cakap tak serupa bikin.
ReplyDeleteAccording to minister dompok the final decision was made due to "sympathy" and "sentiment"...
ReplyDeleteSo finally the laws,the huuhaa, the family's grief and suffering, and even the constituition gave in to sympathy and sentiment of the cabinet of the day...
tsk,tsk,tsk...strange indeed
"Why cant people choose to be what they want? People should embrace and practice a religion only if they believe in it and not because they are forced to."
ReplyDeleteThis is a simple logic or universal rule that will be erased from one's mind once one enters Islam. They talk all kinds of crabs about non compulsion etc but the bottom line is you must be dead if you want to get out.
i dont understand why people, from Religious Office to AG Chamber to PM, thinking-worrying about sei-zhorred believers.
ReplyDeletethose sei-zhorred will remain sei-zhorred, and wont boost any productivity to the nation, people brain cells capacity, or even circulation of newspapers, NST especially.
about time, malaysian squat in toilets and think what sort of future they want their children to face and see.
if talking about sei-zhorred malaysians would boost economy and Synergy Drive - then focus on timber-casket industry, instead of agricultural that never go anywhere!
don't you think so....?
I think the general election is around the corner. Otherwise Rayappan family's rayuan would have gone unheeded.
ReplyDelete"The Cabinet is very sympathetic towards the family. The sentiment of the Cabinet was that he should be recognised as a Christian."
The above diction can help to secure non-Malay votes.For Malay vote...don't worry, the 600 million allocaion for Christmas Shopping will take care of it.
Solely and exclusively to: anonymous 12:38 AM
ReplyDeleteI can only think of the following reasons why you pass those remarks:
1. You live in a coccoon of self-alluded deceptions; or
2. You refuse to accept that Islam is not the cause of problems, which is your prerogative; or
3. You’re simply too stupid to understand the facts; or
4. All of the above. (Especially #3).
Why can't people just be people? Does everything have to have a religous TAG ? To me there's only one RACE...the Human RACE ! We're all on this planet together...help a brother and sister out...One simple rule that should apply to one and ALL...BE NICE !!!
ReplyDeleteSSSEEEYYYAAA,
"DOC"
'Consider this headline in the NST, "Rayappan can now rest in peace"! What does it tell you? It tells you that according to the NST, Rayappan can now rest in peace because his body will be buried according to the Christian. If he's buried as a Muslim, he's not going to rest in peace!'
ReplyDeleteAiYA. APALAH LU ORANG. ALL THOSE DEAD PEOPLE WILL 'RIP" REGARDLES OF WHAT THEY BELIEVED. ONLY THOSE WHO'S LIVING WILL NOT BE IN PEACE OR IN OTHER WORD NORT IN A PEACE STATE. GO AND SEE 'JAMES BOND' LIVE AND LET DIE MOVIE
*TypicalProgrammer*
ReplyDeleteHi Azmi,
Thanks for the feedback. But I doubt you can eradicate Islamophobia just by explaining Islam teaching. I don't meant to be negative, but Islamic extremist are rampant and a noisy lot. Unlike other religious extremist, there are the one that attracts the most attention. Still I believe the majority of the followers are moderate followers, too bad the bad apples are the one making headlines.
Back to the core issue, reading other comments here I can conclude MAIS is merely carrying it's duty to protect the entire community from being sinned. Here is where the line is drawn, how does MAIS knows that one is really an Islam? Should MAIS just perform the burial so they can on the safe side regardless of what family claims? Wouldn't this be a selfish act? MAIS can claim the family to be lying but doing so will only potray them as a tyrant. IMHO if a family claim so, MAIS should just let them of the hook even if it is proven by legal document. A piece of paper doesn't meant that one is faitfull follower of a particular religion. I have a Muslim friend that once explains that if he accidently ate pork without him realising it wont be a sin. So if MAIS respectfully made proper enquires to the family who knows the decease better then to me, they have done they job and the entire community is absolve from sin unless Islamic teaching states otherwise. Appreciate any feedback.
Hey Anonymous (12.38) you said all this:
ReplyDelete"Why cant people choose to be what they want? People should embrace and practice a religion only if they believe in it and not because they are forced to."
This is a simple logic or universal rule that will be erased from one's mind once one enters Islam. They talk all kinds of crabs about non compulsion etc but the bottom line is you must be dead if you want to get out.
-----
Firstly: I don't talk bad about your religion whatever it may be, so stop challenging mine (Islam) and referring it as 'crap'. I'm assuming that's what you mean by 'crab'.
Secondly: if you don't know the big picture, DON'T TALK. You don't understand the verse 'There is no compulsion in religion', so don't quote it as and when you like. For the uninformed, this is what that verse means: 'No-one can be forced or compelled to enter Islam'. It does not mean that you can leave it anytime you like. As someone has pointed out, abandoning Catholicism is also a major sin, like it is in Islam.
Since you're not a Muslim, you don't know the Big Picture, so don't talk about 'a simple logic or universal rule that will be erased from one's mind once one enters Islam'. If that's how you feel, then don't embrance Islam. Simple as that. No-one's asking you to join us.
Finally: Malaysian Muslims don't question (for example) the wisdom of the Trinity, the Hindu gods and their wives and the Buddhist practice of leaving offerings at their idols, so don't criticise our religion and say "Oh why, oh why can't the poor Muslims leave? They should be able to, it's so against the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. I'm not Muslim but I SO feel for them".
Stop. You're breaking my heart.
Having said all that....it was proper that Rayappan's body was returned to the family. Having him buried as a Muslim would've been wrong in the circumstances
ReplyDeleteHi TP,
ReplyDeleteOn the first paragraph, I can’t disagree with you but we’ll talk about that in a later post.
“Back to the core issue, reading other comments here I can conclude MAIS is merely carrying it's duty to protect the entire community from being sinned. Here is where the line is drawn, how does MAIS knows that one is really an Islam?”
Normally MAIS would have to rely on the testimony of witnesses.
“Should MAIS just perform the burial so they can on the safe side regardless of what family claims?”
For a fact, we can’t give a non-muslim a muslim burial. This includes someone who leaves Islam and dies an apostate. The problem in this case was there was a lot of doubt and MAIS had a responsibility to verify. But I really wouldn’t know to what extent they should investigate. MAIS was probably scared as hell of not doing anything but at the same had to be very sensitive in the manner of their inquiry.
“Wouldn't this be a selfish act? MAIS can claim the family to be lying but doing so will only potray them as a tyrant. IMHO if a family claim so, MAIS should just let them of the hook even if it is proven by legal document. “
MAIS certainly should not accuse the family of lying but to just confine themselves to verifying the status of his faith when he died – and only because it was known that he was once a muslim. But again, I really wouldn’t know how best to do it. It was a tricky and sensitive situation pressured by emotions of the family and the public.
“A piece of paper doesn't meant that one is faitfull follower of a particular religion. “
You’re absolutely right.
“I have a Muslim friend that once explains that if he accidently ate pork without him realising it wont be a sin So if MAIS respectfully made proper enquires to the family who knows the decease better then to me, they have done they job and the entire community is absolve from sin unless Islamic teaching states otherwise. Appreciate any feedback”
You’re right on the pork bit. I also agree with you on the rest but I guess it’s what we consider “proper enquiries” or relevant witnesses. In my opinion (without knowing any specific law for this) maybe MAIS should have allowed for the family to bring the body home first while they made their inquiries. After that it’s just a question to which graveyard they bring him to. (I stand corrected – it’s just my opinion).
TP, thanks for being a good sport and being calm in this storm. (Will address the "islamic extremist" bit later -- have to rush out of the house now!).
*TypicalProgrammer*
ReplyDeleteHi Twisted Sister,
I have scan through the post and no one posted that abandoning Catholicism is a major sin. The closest I can find is a post by 'Alliedmartster' that says
"I am a Catholic though, and as in Islam, we also do not condone 'exits' in our religion."
Maybe you can enlighten me the correct post. FYI,I am a Catholic and I know for sure if one abandon the faith it is not consider a sin if the intention is true/good. We don't condone it though. I have seen a case where a priest prohibited a muslim man to enter our faith legally because it would bring more trouble and harm to him and his family if he decided to do so. Admittedly I don't know the particulars though. The priest just advice him to continue to live his life as it is but welcome him to join in prayer and mass if he wish too. Catholic preaches that one to do good more than anything.
Hi Azmi,
I truly enjoy your objective feedback. I agree the issue is so sensitive there is not one way to handle it. IMO MAIS isn't doing anything wrong but their actions are so strict that it reflects badly on them. Your suggestion to allow the family to at least keep the body pending an investigation is a great solution but the flaw is when the family decides to take burial matters them self. If the deceased is proven to be a non-Muslim then all goes well but on the other hand things get more complicated if he is. The body will be exhumed and MAIS will look like a grave digger that won't let the dead rest in peace. Still your suggestion has more merit as it prevent MAIS reputation from being tarnished further.
I guess as long as MAIS make proper and through investigation it will be fine. My personal opinion is that family should have a bigger control on this issue as they are the one closest to the decease. If a family cares much enough on how the decease should be buried they should know if well enough. If the family doesn't care that means they don't know him well enough or has cast him away for the switch of religion. One major roadblock in investigation would be the flaw in our ID card. There are cases where religion are misstated in our ID card and it is in situation like this that family testimony bears more bearing then any government records.
Hi TypicalProgrammer
ReplyDeletewhoops, OK perhaps my use of the words 'major sin' was inaccurate, but I was indeed referring to the post by 'Alliedmartster'. I understood his/her post to mean that it is, to a certain extent, wrong for Catholics to leave their religion although as you've pointed out, it will only be a sin in certain circumstances. My point in referring to that was to show that leaving one's religion isn't just wrong in Islam. Very sorry about the misunderstanding.
Back to the Rayappan case: what still bothers me is that after MAIS had withdrawn its action (which I think was the best thing to do), some Muslims were angry because they had not 'allowed the legal process to take its course'. They were angry with MAIS because under the law, deed polls are not recognised as evidence of change of religion - it is necessary for the person to go to the Syariah court and get a declaration, etc. So to them, MAIS should not have withdrawn the thing. When there is a death involved, they should just dispense with procedure and accept any documents showing a change of religion. Less pain and suffering for the living that way.
*TypicalProgrammer*
ReplyDeleteTwistedSister,
Glad we clear that misunderstanding. It is a sin to leave the Catholic faith in certain circumstances but we fellow Catholics can only advice the person and no more. We cannot imprison, interograte, punish them or even force them to be a Catholic even though by legal law there are declare Catholics. In the end it is up to God to judge.
I see why you are bothered. I agree that a peaceful resolution is required. Is the legal process a must in muslim teaching? if it isnt then those ppl are barking the wrong tree. If it is compulsory, then this is a great opportunity to fix the system. Aisehman has posted something interesting on this issue from a legal perspective.
TypicalProgrammer, yes I agree that letting the family take home the deceased during the investigation can potentially lead to a different set of problems. Like you said, there’s just no one perfect way to handle it. But I’m sure MAIS are already working on a new SOP (standard operationg procedure) for this! On your suggestion that the authorities should simply accept the family’s testimony, I would really like to agree with you but for my own lack of knowledge on the mechanics of verifying a deceased’s state of faith. That is a very interesting suggestion worth researching to support its validity. After all, a caring family would tend to carry out their loved one’s dying wishes and therefore should not lie about the state of faith that he died in, as in the case of Alexander Litvinenko.
ReplyDeleteTwisted Sister!
It is perfectly understandable to be pissed with people like Anonymous 12:38AM but don’t let him stress you out too much. For all we know he/she is an atheist who would rejoice seeing the various believers in a slinging match. Of course many muslims, including you and I, were not pleased with the remarks but it would not be worth being defensive with someone who is not capable of reasoning. (Anonymous 1:51PM was actually me responding in the only manner he/she could understand but my fingers were a bit too hasty that I accidently clicked publish instead of preview before signing in). But nice to see you much calmer after that :-)
TP, i owe you a clarification on islamic extremist. Next post!
Hi again TypicalProgrammer
ReplyDeleteComing back to what you said earlier… “Thanks for the feedback. But I doubt you can eradicate Islamophobia just by explaining Islam teaching. I don't meant to be negative, but Islamic extremist are rampant and a noisy lot. Unlike other religious extremist, there are the one that attracts the most attention. Still I believe the majority of the followers are moderate followers, too bad the bad apples are the one making headlines.”
You’re right. It takes more than education to eradicate islamophobia. Muslims themselves are also partly to blame by giving reasons for the media to spin and blow things up to serve the agendas of the zionists and their allies. Just as much that being submissive to the secularists/liberalists is wrong, so too overeacting can backfire. So muslims themselves have to wake up and live their lives truly according to the teachings of the quran and sunnah.
I know you don’t mean to offend when you use the term “islamic extremist”, just as “islamic terrorist” is embedded in our heads, thanks to the media. “Muslim terrorists” or “muslim extremists” would be more correct. Without wanting to argue on definitions, there is no islamic way of being a terrorist and there is hardly an islamic way of being an extremist either. Like in any religion, there can be good muslims, bad muslims and, yes, evil muslims. It only takes one to declare that there is no god worthy of worship other than Allah and that Muhammad is His messenger for one to become a muslim. It’s that simple. After that, whether or not he is a good or bad muslim depends on the extent that he/she adheres to the teachings of Islam. If I can just give crude examples (although much elaboration is truly warranted) to try to broadly distinguish between the types:
MUSLIM TERRORIST: A muslim who kills innocent people is a terrorist. This is absolutely against Islam. But he is a MUSLIM terrorist, not an islamic terrorist. There is no islamic way of being a terrorist.
EXTREMIST: Semantics aside, I think everyone is already used to thinking that a muslim extremist is narrow minded, detached from reality, thinks he is superior to others, hostile, unforgiving, self-righteous and so on. (Basically not very good behavioural traits). Such a person is then not being islamic therefore “islamic extremist” is also an oxymoron. Whereas a muslim who adheres to each and every teaching of Islam is not a muslim extremist – he would be a good muslim. If I may press the point further, it appears that nowadays the label “extremist" is given to any muslim who does not agree with the “modern” views of a liberalist. Which brings us to the next one:
MODERATE/LIBERAL: I can understand non muslims being very comfortable with moderate or liberal muslims but this may not necessarily be good for that muslim from an Islamic perspective. But that depends on the definition of moderate or liberal. To me, if I may put it simply and crudely for the sake of illustration, a good muslim goes straight to heaven, a moderate muslim could spend a couple of years in hell before going to heaven and a liberal muslim might reside for a loooooooong time in the fire before going to heaven. (Anyone who goes to heaven is ultimatley by god’s mercy notwithstanding his/her own effort). I’d say that the proudly self-proclaimed liberal muslims are the ones playing with fire – they’re taking a pretty big risk in the eyes of god. So I hope you understand if, from an Islamic perspective, I say that I would rather this country be full of good muslims rather than moderate muslims and almost definitely not liberal muslims. (I know I’m inviting trouble here!).
All said, the most important point is that Islam cannot be blamed for the faulty practices of its believers, and more so when by a minority of them. People freak out at the thought of being under Islamic law (which should not be confused with arab culture) but if you really study it you will find that it is fair to everyone -- muslims and non muslims. So there’s no reason to hate or fear Islam unless that person is someone who believes he/she should be allowed to do anything he/she likes without boundaries.
I would have liked to write more on all this for clearer undertanding but I’d be risking being booted out by rocky!
*TypicalProgrammer*
ReplyDeleteHi Azmi,
First thing first, my apologize for using the term "Islamic extremist". I agree that my chosen words were inaccurate to what I was implying. Thank you for not taking any offences.
I must admit being under the rule of Islamic law certainly will freak me out to say the least. I guess this is perception is developed because of the way certain Muslim portray it as extreme to me. Nonetheless from an analytical point of view, I believe that Islamic laws has to be fair as any biased law would have been overthrown and not last thousand of years. I still believe that one can be extreme in their believe if their faith but still practice it with moderation. I myself would prefer to have moderate muslim in the country, the kind that would not spend time in hell since you stated yourself that moderate muslim could but necassary spend time in hell. Nonetheless I respect you preference and if does come true I can live with that. Though our preference differ, I still am able to accept it. The main challenge in our country is to accept each other difference in race and religion and live together. I have enjoyed our discussion and appreciated your feedback. For the sake that you wont booted out let us end this discussion here. I have gain much and hope to have more discussion like this in the future with you and other poster.
TypicalProgrammer, always a pleasure mate.
ReplyDeleteDear Twisted Sister,
ReplyDeleteI just wish to respond to this comment:
"Finally: Malaysian Muslims don't question (for example) the wisdom of the Trinity, the Hindu gods and their wives and the Buddhist practice of leaving offerings at their idols, so don't criticise our religion and say "Oh why, oh why can't the poor Muslims leave? They should be able to, it's so against the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. I'm not Muslim but I SO feel for them".
Perhaps your reference to 'Malaysian Muslims don't question... ' is not entirely true. As a liberal Hindu I was shocked that the Muslim residents near Batu Caves requested that the lights that light up the huge statue be shut down because it reminded them of ghosts. Also I know of Hindu priests who have been turned down by Muslim cabbies because they refuse to take 'org lain agama' in their cabs and another priest who had donned holy ash was told by a Muslim cabbie that he looked like a ghost.
No my dear, they don't question our beliefs because our beliefs are pagan and we worship 'ghosts' not Gods.
I just needed to correct your assumption that all Malaysian Muslims are like you :) and point out that there is a clear difference between 'not questioning beliefs' and accepting the equality of all religions...
I could only let out a big sigh when I read learson’s post….. That’s a nice sweeping statement to help create visuals of headless somalis scattered all over the country isn't it. Oh well, that depends how far your imagination goes.
ReplyDeleteFirstly, it is not the Somalian government. It is a small town south of Somalia. And the news article –- all this was told to Associated Press in a phone call -- also did say it did not apply to other towns. (I couldn’t be bothered putting the link of the article here). Somalian government indeed… (unless they were thinking of ways to wipe out the population!).
Secondly, nowhere in the article is apostasy mentioned. (Unless learson is referring to a different article).
What the article also really said was that muslims who do not perform their prayers for 3 days will be beheaded. (I suppose learson heard somewhere, without knowing the whole truth, that this equates to apostasy). And the chap who made that threat is supposedly the chairman of the town’s islamic court, which is part of a network backed by armed militiamen. Nope, doesn’t sound very islamic to me. Not an apostasy issue at all. Sounds more like chaps trying to control the town with guns (and big axes).
But this is just another example of how the western media –- the Associate Press/foxnews is of course known to show support for the zionists -- brings to the forefront and amplifies any error of a minority of muslims to put Islam in a bad light. Never mind the hundreds of thousands of innocent men, women and children being slaughtered in Iraq (which is much bigger than the somalian town) by the murdering George Bush the born-again Christian (or rather, a counterfeit christian).
I suppose I can’t blame learson for getting the facts wrong because he is just one of many who have been tuned to think that way by the western media.
All I can say is that it is ABSOLUTELY AGAINST ISLAM to kill a person who misses his prayers. Yes, it’s a sin to miss prayers for no good reason but you don’t get killed for it. There is also no verse in the quran that commands for a person to be killed merely because he leaves Islam. Whereas there are verses in the Quran which mean otherwise, consistent with the verse that says “There is no compulsion in religion”.
Anonymous 1.51pm
ReplyDeleteyour response said a lot about yourself.
twisted sister
I have no intention to break your heart.
And please also open up your mind to people's remarks.
Do not treat people's remarks when they are negative as an insult to your religion.
People's remarks are often a reflection of what they perceive based on information fed to them. Please recall the news coming out in local newspapers of late.
Are you proud of it as a Muslim?
Anonymous 12.38
Hi Anonymous 12:38AM/1:51PM
ReplyDelete(Can i suggest you give yourself a name? Easier lah next time)
Sometimes there are better ways to get the same message across. We can disagree with each other but let's not trade insults. Maybe we all started off on the wrong foot. Let's try again :-)
When Anonymous 2:38AM said (and a valid point too): "Why cant people choose to be what they want? People should embrace and practice a religion only if they believe in it and not because they are forced to", you responded with: "This is a simple logic or universal rule that will be erased from one's mind once one enters Islam. They talk all kinds of crabs about non compulsion etc but the bottom line is you must be dead if you want to get out".
Your first sentence is not totally accurate but merits food for thought. Your perception is understandable. But subsequently saying "They talk all kinds of crabs about non compulsion etc but the bottom line is you must be dead if you want to get out" is indeed offensive. Why offensive? Because it is fact that there is no compulsion in religion -- this verse is in the quran (surah al-baqarah 2:256) -- and muslims don't really appreciate it being called crap, or crab or fish or whatever. So I hope you also understand the muslim's perception. If it had not been perceived as an insult, I’m sure someone would have made the effort to present the facts rationally and patiently, even if for the second/third time. Saying "you must be dead if you want to get out" is also a misstatement delivered with sarcasm but I would take it as an oversimplified misconception rather than an insult. As it turned out (even if mistakenly perceived by muslims), the whole post looked as though it was intended to insult, hence the reaction. But never mind. It’s past. Maybe words just came out wrong. What’s important is I think we both now understand each other's perception.
Now you say: "Do not treat people's remarks when they are negative as an insult to your religion".
I agree. Negative remarks are not necessarily insults.
"People's remarks are often a reflection of what they perceive based on information fed to them."
I agree.
"Please recall the news coming out in local newspapers of late. “
Ahhhhh.... Now I see the problem.... local newspapers. (sighhhh…..). I think rocky and others here might have something to say about their credibility :p
One of the reasons we turn to this blog is because local newspapers are inherent of propoganda and bias. Newspaper stories (especially in the NST – I recall someone on this blog saying it stood for “Never Say Truth”) range from being told out of context to misrepresentations and from distortions to outright lies. (Save for some, where there is no agenda). So we definitely have to look at rebuttals and rational arguments to disagree or support what is reported. I can imagine that your misconceptions of Islam may not stop at apostasy so please feel free to ask. (Dialogue with TypicalProgrammer shows that we can disagree without taking a swipe at each other).
Muslims are required to integrate with the community and be friendly & respectful towards both muslims & non muslims and that does not mean to the detriment of Islamic values. Let me rephrase that: it is not inspite of islamic values that muslims are to be friendly but BECAUSE of islamic values. Unfortunately, like in any society, there will always be a minority from each religion (and liberalists, atheists, etc) who are intolerant of the religious values of others and only because they lack true understanding of the religion(s). I won’t deny that we muslims (including myself) need to also understand our own religion better in order to distinguish between the truth, lies and distortions. And with the knowledge, no muslim or non muslim should ever be afraid to defend the truth.
We just have to cut out the noise from the extremist politicians, extremist liberalists, racists and extremist misguided religious fanatics.